On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

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j0Shi
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On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by j0Shi »

"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by dupeks »

One thing that strikes me is that there is a LOT of feedback generated. Most of it is absolute garbage.

And the few well-reasoned thought-out arguments are often accompanied by a sea of flaming, trolling, screaming, and otherwise unproductive and misguided noise.

I know sometimes I add to that noise myself (out of boredom, amusement, spite?), but I try to be more productive than not.

However, trying to find those well-reasoned arguments in a sea of flaming, trolling, and screaming is difficult. It’s a lot of effort to sort through, and much easier to just write off as a “vocal minority” or whatnot.

That said, I’m generally saddened that more players don’t try to support / socialize good ideas on the official platforms. Even reasonable threads are more often than not met with a loud and muddying response.

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by Janne »

Hey, as someone who is responsible for plenty of flaming, trolling and unproductive noise, I have only one thing to say:

DON'T TAKE THE END GAME FORUM-PVP AWAY !!


Though, honestly, while I'm sure many on the forums find me as an idiot, lately, maybe because of even more increase of cynicism on my part, I don't think that suggesting anything constructive is viable on the forums due to the current population there. Doing anything else than participating on the forums looks like a better use of time.

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by dupeks »

Janne wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 23:26
Hey, as someone who is responsible for plenty of flaming, trolling and unproductive noise, I have only one thing to say:

DON'T TAKE THE END GAME FORUM-PVP AWAY !!


Though, honestly, while I'm sure many on the forums find me as an idiot, lately, maybe because of even more increase of cynicism on my part, I don't think that suggesting anything constructive is viable on the forums due to the current population there. Doing anything else than participating on the forums looks like a better use of time.
Aww I thought your crusade to inform inert chemicals about rational thinking was a great use of time.

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by PutzBoy78 »

I'm conflicted on the whole topic. Firstly not all Endgamers are equal. There are some that are much more community minded than others. There is a huge difference between those that bitch about everything and those that post builds, guides, theorycraft, run in game channels, lead guilds/alliances, etc

Yet I don't agree with pandering to a select audience either.

Honestly chult was a good mix (for those who will claim that it was all end game). Chult introduced weapons good for starting out, hunts provided some really nice mid-tier gear that was easy to obtain and encourage socialization, yet TONG was pretty much a end game environment that is steadily becoming more open for not so end game players as ilvls from chult content rise and dungeon mechanics become more understood.

I don't know how in a sea of what is trolls in the forums Cryptic can gain useful feedback. I do think they can determine where some of their contribution comes from who's running the largest guilds and channels in the game, who's posting theorycraft that is actually accurate, how long they've played the game, and how much time they spend in game on average. Maybe the logic they used for the SH PVP test group is helpful? Perhaps from that they could derive some advocates and parse out their feedback? Maybe target them for a survey or feedback?

I think the real arguments come down to fixing shit vs new content. Where is the prioritization made and what is the ROI on it. The only people capable of determining ROI is cryptic. We do not have the insight for it since we can only judge the end result, not the effort to make the result nor its value in terms of RL$.

So in the end I think getting quality feedback can help but that's only one piece of the equation.

As for Kali's nonsense. He is not one of these people and I don't believe in this god status of players. Kali left before raging the game was dead, so don't buy his hype. It's an MMO, people stick around because of the people they play with not because of the game content. Do you login every day because of invokes and professions, no. You log in each day to greet your guild, hear what drama or adventures they've had and hope to have have some of your own

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by Janne »

To add to Putz said, and I wanted to write about it at some point, is that I think in large Cryptic problem is Telemetry. All modern software and especially online games analyze user behavior, actions, times, etc..
It looks to me is that either they don't collect the right data, or don't analyze it correctly, or a mix of those. To do a good Telemetry and to gain insights from it is not a simple task, you need to correlate the correct data, filter out the not needed stuff, and know how to drill down and refine the collection process once you find something. Anything in the process can be not good enough, not enough data and nothing can be done, gathering all the possible logs and data but not being able to analyze it correctly and it's not worth it as it points to the wrong conclusions.

From past expiriance, it looks like Cryptic failing at it completely, for example with resonators exploit, it's unbelievable that it lasted too long. When a sum of AD from activities could have shown enormous discrepancy, and a drill down to the exploit itself.
So is with dungeon runs, at mod4 dungeons became trivial, good data collection could have shown the trend and by mod 5 it could have been alleviated, without the panic button named mod6.
Throughout the game live it looks like the devs wake up to late and over react, and IMO this is in large to their lack of quality 'feedback' if it's from automatic data gathering, filtering human feedback like forums etc.. and in-game presence. I believe it's because there isn't someone who is responsibly for it, there isn't a single person with a hand on the pulse that checks those red flags, or checks that if boss X died in 10 seconds how it happened, and correlate with bug reports and power usage. More so with filtering human reports, which mostly noise, and as of now a lot of the forums and other player related feedback is 'filtered' by people who in many ways are not qualified for it, can't know the priority, severity or even validity of issues, and it shouldn't be their job.

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by j0Shi »

Very valid points overall. Not having a guy that constantly looks at their data is another aspect to the topic. It's a classic 'small game' issue in that they probably have a hard time finding resources for it. I think the Community Manager should handle that, but Julia has god knows how many other tasks, so it's not happening.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by PutzBoy78 »

you can point to data analytics in several areas. Like Janne said, economy where some simple data reporting and alerts could have prevented many of the major exploits we've seen.

In theory every change should have a desired result and therefore a data set/report that shows if that result is achieved or exceeded. Add some rewards because you think it will increase behavior X by 10% and you see behavior X multiple 3 times, it's probably an exploit and needs more research.

I know the limited resources thing comes up, but as a minimum things like more AD coming into the game than possible via refinement should be a red flag. or an outlier of someone reaching 2M power should be a red flag in the system. Those simple error traps could be incorpated into the build as
a one time effort, not a reoccurring person researching data

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Re: On Neverwinter, Endgame Players, and Who They Do Listen To

Post by j0Shi »

Oh I agree. You could even say that these "automated emergency flags" get more important the less people actually work on a project. I'm not saying that I even remotely know what a MMORPG demands, but my own experience, also on this site, is that it helps long-term. Half of the stuff I do is making things easier for myself behind the scenes.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr