Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

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Sharpedge
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Sharpedge » Sun Jul 16, 2017 22:18

herculeshlias wrote:
Sharpedge wrote:
herculeshlias wrote:

Sharp I didn’t post any bug but I can correct you. You forgot the racial stat “Faerie Fire: You have 5% chance when attacking a foe to apply Faerie Fire for 4 seconds, reducing its Power and Defense by 6%. and its uncapped debuff. Truth is it’s 3% and not 5% as listed in Michelas list but with the 100% debuff it becomes 6%

Now before you say it’s capped and quote Michelas Debuff list I can tell you the list is wrong on that (and I think on a couple of other things too when we checked.) and as a proof here are the act logs I just did (time is in greek format)

1st Screen is all the Capped skills/artifact used to get to 100% capeed
Image

As you can see on the 2nd screen, again with all the skills that were applied on dummy (so you won't say that another source was introduced) when Faerie Fire procs I get to 206% so 6% more.
Knowing you you will also add 290+6=296 but don't forget it stacks for up to 4 times, (you can check your own guide for that) Even with 1 stack 296 is close to 300 so… no bug :)

Image

Hope that answered your question and also not to rush and call bugs about things, one can't be sure off.


I made a mistake and I am sorry for it. Really, really sorry. The fault does not lie with Miki, since she did not test it, it lies with me and I regret it. I tested it with someone else and idk how I messed up the test :(

However, this does lead to 296% being the highest you can reach, in mod 11.5, without stacking. Stacking Darkfire and Faerie is still a bug, so even if you are going beyond 300%, it is still by using 1 bug or another.


The only source i find about the drow and the menzoberanzan renegade they cant stack debuff is the neverwinter wiki. Anyone can edit the neverwinter wiki btw.
When i look at character creation there is no " debuff do not stack" Image
and here the same for the renegade. Image



so do i use any bug ?


I can't find any source that says bear your sins can't stack either. The tooltip certainly does not. You should go ahead and report darkfire+faerie fire since its "maybe" a bug.

herculeshlias
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby herculeshlias » Sun Jul 16, 2017 22:53

Sharpedge wrote:
herculeshlias wrote:
Sharpedge wrote:

I made a mistake and I am sorry for it. Really, really sorry. The fault does not lie with Miki, since she did not test it, it lies with me and I regret it. I tested it with someone else and idk how I messed up the test :(

However, this does lead to 296% being the highest you can reach, in mod 11.5, without stacking. Stacking Darkfire and Faerie is still a bug, so even if you are going beyond 300%, it is still by using 1 bug or another.


The only source i find about the drow and the menzoberanzan renegade they cant stack debuff is the neverwinter wiki. Anyone can edit the neverwinter wiki btw.
When i look at character creation there is no " debuff do not stack" Image
and here the same for the renegade. Image



so do i use any bug ?


I can't find any source that says bear your sins can't stack either. The tooltip certainly does not. You should go ahead and report darkfire+faerie fire since its "maybe" a bug.

Thats why i am saying " maybe" i am not absolute unlike your posts repeating everytime about the combustive and the opressive and the double smolders as " not as intended ".

ALso On me i dont know about others the menzo racial proc 1 time and also i dont need my enchantment to multiproc to add a decent debuff( neither and the double smolders).

Thanks.

Devon
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Devon » Mon Jul 17, 2017 01:30

Sharpedge wrote:

I made a mistake and I am sorry for it. Really, really sorry. The fault does not lie with Miki, since she did not test it, it lies with me and I regret it. I tested it with someone else and idk how I messed up the test :(

However, this does lead to 296% being the highest you can reach, in mod 11.5, without stacking. Stacking Darkfire and Faerie is still a bug, so even if you are going beyond 300%, it is still by using 1 bug or another.

Sharpedge wrote:
I can't find any source that says bear your sins can't stack either. The tooltip certainly does not. You should go ahead and report darkfire+faerie fire since its "maybe" a bug.


You do the right thing and I was about to say, it takes a great man to admit a mistake but how do you call a man that continues repeating the mistake just to win face and on top uses irony? I can tell you with darkfire since I'm a drow, which is 5% and not 3, it takes me to 300%. It's 205% then 210% so he is right. I don't see any reference anywhere other than the wiki and ONLY for faerie and ONLY on menzo renegade page for some reason (probably its their bug). So 4 stacks as you mention in your guide too, its not a bug at all and that makes it 320% legit.

Link to darkfire wiki has no mention of NOT stacking
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Darkfire

Link to Faerie Fire wiki has no mention of NOT stacking either
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Faerie_Fire

Image

And also you are right about Sins, it doesn't say it anywhere but then again the daily OF extending the debuff for 5 more seconds isn't mentioned somewhere either as it shouldn't be happening and where have you seen stacking smolder is not indented? and I can go on for a lot of bugs you reported... so please. There is this thing called Common Sense and Common Reasoning that allows us to be able to tell what is right and what is wrong and then report such activities and let the people responsible handle it, if and when they can.

Janne
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Janne » Mon Jul 17, 2017 06:58

I probably shouldn't even have to say it, but lets not even mention the wiki. I can go and edit it right now.... (Please offer bids, I will change it to the higher bidder offer)

About tooltips, most stacking tooltips have "This will stack up to x times", but at the same time there are some tooltips that specifcily note "That something will not stack"

So it can go both ways.

And if we talk about common sense, lets be realistic, stacking smolder doesn't sound like intended. Though I don't mind that it would be.
These are all assumptions and guesses, and most will be likely never fixed or changed until they become an issue to something, the devs wont be digging lines over lines of code because of 5%, you slap a diminishing function and/or a cap over all of it and it's done. So it's the most moot thing ever.

You turned this waste of time bug reporting into a war, half of it shouldn't be even reported, half no one care about, and half is a waste of time.
Oh and another half made more noise because someone decided that it's a bug...

Use the time for better things, like farming, and sending things to me.

Devon
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Devon » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:12

Well I used the 2 examples to prove a point as I already stated for myself that, I NEVER use smolder stacking because its a stupid concept to get some extra debuff. I didn't actually mean those 2 were not bugs, but lets be honest when no one EVER has mention darkfire stacks as bug, mentioning them as such, just to get "points" its.... Darkfire exists since mod 1 and a friend that plays the game from back then (the same one you mention is in your alliance) told me that, the (old) devs were asked in mod 1 preview and answered that its ok due to low chance of procing. So yes, using Common sense, one should report stacking smolder as a bug but also not use it as a method in their guides also, don't you agree? and IF ONLY 1 daily extends the duration of a debuff I think its not indented either.

I have to say tho, I didn't understand this line, cause If I'm right you are trying to say that I turned this into a war?

Janne wrote:
You turned this waste of time bug reporting into a war, half of it shouldn't be even reported, half no one care about, and half is a waste of time.
Oh and another half made more noise because someone decided that it's a bug...


We are all equal to blame here cause it takes 2 to tango. So lets do this: I will stop this here as far as I am concerned and only comment to things that have to do with the Topic, if there are any. Can you (single and plural) do the same too?

Cheers everyone and lets go back to farm, I agree with that:) Whats your @handle to send things? :P

Janne
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Janne » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:58

Devon wrote:
Well I used the 2 examples to prove a point as I already stated for myself that, I NEVER use smolder stacking because its a stupid concept to get some extra debuff. I didn't actually mean those 2 were not bugs, but lets be honest when no one EVER has mention darkfire stacks as bug, mentioning them as such, just to get "points" its.... Darkfire exists since mod 1 and a friend that plays the game from back then (the same one you mention is in your alliance) told me that, the (old) devs were asked in mod 1 preview and answered that its ok due to low chance of procing. So yes, using Common sense, one should report stacking smolder as a bug but also not use it as a method in their guides also, don't you agree? and IF ONLY 1 daily extends the duration of a debuff I think its not indented either.

I have to say tho, I didn't understand this line, cause If I'm right you are trying to say that I turned this into a war?

Janne wrote:
You turned this waste of time bug reporting into a war, half of it shouldn't be even reported, half no one care about, and half is a waste of time.
Oh and another half made more noise because someone decided that it's a bug...


We are all equal to blame here cause it takes 2 to tango. So lets do this: I will stop this here as far as I am concerned and only comment to things that have to do with the Topic, if there are any. Can you (single and plural) do the same too?

Cheers everyone and lets go back to farm, I agree with that:) Whats your @handle to send things? :P


1. Not you you. (English third language, and in both others that I use, there is a plural you, hmm maybe not both, I need to think about this)

2. If the devs ignored something because it has a low chance of happening, it doesn't mean it's the designed behaviours.... There are bugs that are not fixed for years, with much more impact (someone said lurker+stealth+sf).
It just means it's a bug, and lets be clear, anyone who uses it, imo should feel free to use it, it's not an exploit in any sense, we are not going to blame people playing drow for an age old insignificant bug they can't control.

Smolder stacking is not the issue of you using it or not, it's not an issue of anyone using it at all. The whole Bug World War, it about if a mechanic is intended or not, and because we have no clue what the devs think, we can only guess, and more times than not, devs didn't think either way, they just made changes and hoped for the best (not trying to insult, but that's a fact with such low manpower), so we 'common-sense-guistimate' what is a bug or not. Some think some things are, others do not.
People free to report what they want, but when this bug report is instead became bickering and reporting mechanics just to stick it to the other class, it becomes dishonest, and nothing productive comes from this.

IMO most of the things are not bugs but design considerations. Those are related but not the same.

To the point here, it should go both ways, if darkfire or whatever it was, stacks on some powers but not on others, then the fix should be to unify, either it globally stacks with some cap (like most things, plaguefire for example) or not stack on anything. The most harming to balance and design are those half working crap in general. So the bickering if it should stack or not is irrelevant, if it 'sometimes' stacks it's a bug, otherwise, it's a design choice if it should always stack, or never stack.

Devon
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Devon » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:09

Devon wrote:

We are all equal to blame here cause it takes 2 to tango. So lets do this: I will stop this here as far as I am concerned and only comment to things that have to do with the Topic, if there are any. Can you (single and plural) do the same too?

Cheers everyone and lets go back to farm, I agree with that:) Whats your @handle to send things? :P


:P I meant it, So whats your @handle to send you Items??? I got fireworks for you :P (joking)

Michela
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Michela » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:43

Devon wrote:
I can tell you with darkfire since I'm a drow, which is 5% and not 3, it takes me to 300%. It's 205% then 210% so he is right. I don't see any reference anywhere other than the wiki and ONLY for faerie and ONLY on menzo renegade page for some reason (probably its their bug). So 4 stacks as you mention in your guide too, its not a bug at all and that makes it 320% legit.


How do you do that? Predator + Commanding Shot + 3 stacks of Bane + 8 stacks of Thorn Ward + 2 stacks of Dark Fire and I am still at 200%.
Image
In the image you can see 3624 4009 4220 3207, all hits that happened at 14:19:53 when I had 2 stacks of Dark Fire and the effectiveness was already at 200%
Image

Is there a way to make Dark Fire overcome this cap?

Devon
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Devon » Mon Jul 17, 2017 14:16

I'm on my way to work and I saw your post. I'm a ps4 user so no ACT here and I only have combat log to rely. I will double and triple check it but when I said 320% I mean based on what its being said here about stacking that it would be legit to go at that number. Looking at your logs it seems it doesn't for only the darkfire (capped?) but I will tell you later when I'm back at home. To be honest tho in what? 7 days for you , and a bit later for us, it wont matter anyway, capped, uncapped etc will be all gone away.

Apologies If i mislead someone, that wasn't my intention.

IIMrMonkeyII
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby IIMrMonkeyII » Mon Jul 17, 2017 14:20

Edit: Link didn't work. All I have are the "photo" files in a folder can someone help me post them here. I tried https://imgbb.com/


So i want to keep this short and sweet. I just spent a very long time reading this entire discussion.

I have a CW on Xbox and now PC. I have played DPS and pure support.

Sidenote: I also have a DC built for AC and DO with a few minor changes. (LOVING the DC BTW)

Currently, on PC i have a MoF Rene CW (however I am really considering going Opp because many Rene things are a waste imo [NW, CN, CG, etc]). I like the idea of Controlled Momentum instead of Chaos Blah Blah Blah...just a rant, sorry.

I want to post this here and see what people have to say about it. I am always looking to improve my toons in any way that I can. Any comments/suggestions/criticisms/whatever are welcome. However, I would appreciate it if people would focus on suggestions for Mod 12+ (debuff mechanic changes).

SERIOUS NOTE: I am a full on scrub with computers, ACT, and these forums. Therefore, I apologize in advance for any lack of info/context/screw ups trying to post my ACT log to this post. I might never figure out how to actually do it if it doesn't work lmao...

This is a MoF Rene hitting a dummy (no external debuffs from other players) the test was a little over one minute, I have switched to T Frost, and I understand the overall effectiveness would probably be lower in longer tests (because of Black Dragon up-time etc.). This rotation is absolutely the easiest thing to maintain given my stats and playing claw on an Xbox controller (former COD player). I could easily (wouldn't want to tho XD) maintain this rotation for 20 minutes straight.

I hope that is okay info on the context feel free to ask questions (I might take awhile to respond though, sorry)...

Image

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beckylunatic
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby beckylunatic » Mon Jul 17, 2017 15:12

These are Mr Monkey's logs formatted so the images will embed.

Image

Image

IIMrMonkeyII
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby IIMrMonkeyII » Mon Jul 17, 2017 16:48

TYVM beckylunatic

Michela
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Michela » Mon Jul 17, 2017 19:31

Np Devon I was just curious if I was missing something, because in my tests it never raised the cap, but I don't play Drow nor CW so I don't know them very well. I just have a naked Drow I use as bank.

Spidey_the_great
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby Spidey_the_great » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:47

Michela wrote:
I just have a naked Drow I use as bank.


She said "naked" :D :D :evil:

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dupeks
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Re: Mod 12+ Mechanics Changes

Postby dupeks » Sun Jul 23, 2017 07:02

FYI - did some testing about how the new debuff mechanic works when RI < DR.

It appears that the damage calculation works as follows:

(1+RI-DR)*(1+f(debuffs))
where (1+RI-DR) is capped between 0,2 and 1

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y

Test:

I slogged my DC to port, stripped naked, and hit the big dummy.

Base hit 20% effectiveness (RI<20%, so I'm doing the min 20%)
Bear your Sins (10% debuff) = 22% effectiveness
Divine Glow (17.5% debuff) = 23.5% effectiveness
ByS + DG (27.5% debuff) = 25.5% effectiveness
ByS + DG + Doom (40% debuff) = 27.9% effectiveness

I think that's proof positive that it works like you think Janne
(1+RI - DR) * (1 + f(debuffs))
where 0.2 <= (1 + RI - DR)) <= 1.0

Otherwise i'd be getting closer to 40% effectiveness (since no Arpen and diminishing still would be small).
And it's sensible that with ByS + DG
(1+0-0.8)*(1+0.275)=0.255 ~ 25.5% effectiveness

And with doom up, maybe we're starting to see the diminishing returns at 40% additive
(1+0-0.8)*(1+0.4)=0.28 ~ 28% effectiveness, but we're seeing 27.9% because of the additional diminishing returns penalty starting to come into play.


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