Bots on Neverwinter

What does not belong in any other section does probably belong here.
Janne
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 05:28
Favorite Class: Trickster Rogue
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by Janne »

clonkyo1 wrote:
Shava wrote:
j0Shi wrote:How do you get those source code comments? Are they from the third-party server code?
The source code was leaked on the internet a long time ago. It is the "Shadowmantle" release and anyone can download it for educational purpose. But I seriously doubt other people use it for that purpose. I basically browse and study the code in the vain attempt of learning more about how the game is meant to function.

The programmer is upset, because there are far too many people working on different modules and left the next programmer to replace him a note to say, "Yes. I am not some moron who blatantly uses "goto" commands, I have to do it like this because of all the other fingers in this pie.". I am pointing out the programmers are NOT all incompetent as puddles said, they are just at the mercy of the machine.

I kind of envision Walter White and Jesse Pinkman in the lab and Pinkman shouting, "Mr. White we sell poison to people who just don't care!". I imagine that is what it is like to be a programmer for Cryptic.

I do remember when i started to "debunk" (reverse, let's be honest here) the source code from the leaked mod... someone with far more knowledge on development than myself told me this: "WTH is this shit?? i mean, why are they using those old commands and tokens?? do they even know that C++ [A's N: i think] has updated their commands an source code since 2004? is really ">=" still working? [A's N [2] i do know that on BASH, now, those commands are "letters" instead of "tokens"] "

EDIT: To be really clear: what my friend stated was this simple fact: the source code of the game is FAR OLDER than 15 years... That, for a MODERN MMO, is just BAD and stupid. Even RIOT is updating their source code nowadays and removing old source nonsense like, in example, those strings....
Why would ">=" will be removed or not work ? It's a basic operator "Greater than or equal to"....

Actually C++ is an ISO standard and not a program by itself and was updated only twice since 2003, once at 2011 C++11 and 2014 C++14.
A lot of the changes like thread local memory storage and so on.. Isn't usually coded directly, people use threading libraries (wrappers like POSIX thread library in this example). So those changes, for example, will be less relevant to a game engine developer directly, especially at cryptic level where it's not their specialization like Crytec. It's also not reasonable to rewrite the entire engine because something working via 3d party library was introduced as a core feature....

clonkyo1
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:28
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Great Weapon Fighter
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by clonkyo1 »

Janne wrote:Why would ">=" will be removed or not work ? It's a basic operator "Greater than or equal to"....

Actually C++ is an ISO standard and not a program by itself and was updated only twice since 2003, once at 2011 C++11 and 2014 C++14.
A lot of the changes like thread local memory storage and so on.. Isn't usually coded directly, people use threading libraries (wrappers like POSIX thread library in this example). So those changes, for example, will be less relevant to a game engine developer directly, especially at cryptic level where it's not their specialization like Crytec. It's also not reasonable to rewrite the entire engine because something working via 3d party library was introduced as a core feature....

Well, IMO, updating the source code would may fix some problems we do have right in the game. I do remember reading on this forum and other one that some players made a "patch" where they fixed most of the code, foundry included, updating and even improving it. A user on the other forum said that the source code is "leaking memory" by just using old code lines. As i said, i'm not an expert on development but that statement i've read here and there was almost the same thing that my friend told me about the source code of the game itself. ^^U.

As a side note, updating the "source" itself may be good or bad depending on the person developing the code: I've met some "coders" that didn't knew the difference between ">=" and "<=" and "=="

User avatar
Nippers Meowington
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 18:26
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by Nippers Meowington »

Shava wrote:Good Morning Players!

Some of your points about DNS and PWE running Real Money Trade (RMT) sites seem valid but it doesn't invalidate the possible.
agreed and imo it's fair to air some informed conjecture :)

User avatar
dupeks
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 17:07
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by dupeks »

clonkyo1 wrote: Well, IMO, updating the source code would may fix some problems we do have right in the game.
Are you advocating for a complete rewrite of the game's source code? Because that would be a monumental task...

As someone who occasionally has to manage software development projects in my professional career, I find that most people grossly underestimate the complexity of the "source code" that goes into even the most basic programs. It's often not even conceptually one thing, but a crazy web of 3rd party commercial and home-brewed libraries and packages that hook into each other. Parts will be written in different languages and cross-complied Different skill sets are needed for understanding/designing different elements of the program.

Rebuilding a program from the ground up is just about the most expensive thing they could try to do. And it would most likely come with its own new set of bugs/interactions that would take years to untangle. The closest thing you'll ever get to a rewrite is if someone else buys the DnD IP and builds a new game around it.

In my silly opinion, asking for a large-scale refactoring of the existing code base is a foolish pipe dream.

TheHappyLion
Posts: 1211
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 15:00
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by TheHappyLion »

What dupeks said.

clonkyo1
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:28
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Great Weapon Fighter
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by clonkyo1 »

dupeks wrote:Are you advocating for a complete rewrite of the game's source code?
Not at all. What i'm saying is to update some old code lines from the source code, which is what they did on the other forum (as far as i understood it, ofc, i may be wrong, though) ^^U . Never meant to say "the whole code"

User avatar
dupeks
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 17:07
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by dupeks »

clonkyo1 wrote:
dupeks wrote:Are you advocating for a complete rewrite of the game's source code?
Not at all. What i'm saying is to update some old code lines from the source code, which is what they did on the other forum (as far as i understood it, ofc, i may be wrong, though) ^^U . Never meant to say "the whole code"
I don't know for certain because I don't work on the team, but in general whenever they make ANY updates to Neverwinter server or client code, they are "updating some old code lines". Sure they are writing new ones too, but much of the new "content" is actually configuration files rather than code. Class balance updates, updates to combat mechanics and interactions are all effectively "updating old code". They already do a lot of that, with various degrees of success (but compared to industry standards, they are very poor in their quality and regression testing, as is apparent with the number of bugs that reappear after a few updates). Sometimes the old code is so bad that they just rewrite it entirely. And then we get issues like SH HEs not re-spawning (I'd venture they rewrote the HE controller and didn't test it thoroughly).

So yeah I'm sure they could spend a lot _more_ time reviewing their existing codebase, bugchasing, and testing, but I'm not sure that what you're asking them to do is any different than what they've already been doing. Personally, I think we're all just disappointed at the results because the problem is a lot more complicated than most people think, because this set of developers has demonstrated a surprising lack of aptitude and understanding of their game systems, and because management has not prioritized testing or incorporating bug reports from the preview server before releasing content to live (a frustrating decision, but one that I am a bit more sympathetic to due to the aggressive update schedules and overwhelming nature of addressing all the little details).

puddles
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 07:37
Favorite Class: Great Weapon Fighter
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by puddles »

Maybe they should have purchased, or used an open source, piece of software for change management. They make some real nice tools for handling versioning, regression testing and documenting software projects. With a little bit of oversight, and professionalism, they wouldn't be in this mess.

User avatar
Shava
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 19:29
Favorite Class: Hunter Ranger
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by Shava »

About catching bots, I am aware CAPTCHA and Game Moderation is but a few. Spambots are way too easy to snag, but dungeon bots and farming bots are not that difficult to detect from the server side. Logical reason should not be overlooked. Any game should track the user daily log in time. Meaning you would black flag any user with more than 50% online (over 12 hours a day) which would alert active GM's to "observe" the player. We cannot say it would be impossible for one person to play a video game 24 hours straight but highly unlikely and not normal.

As I said before, a failed CAPTCHA is not an automatic ban, it would be reason to watch the account and flag for possible botting activity for a time. To remove human element is a huge mistake. Mass bans by automation is horrible, as I can affirm from personal experience. It is bad for the innocent players and gives the company a black eye in the process. The question boils down to which players can the company entrust with game moderation?

I have to get going, my turn to get lunch for everyone in the office. Grabbing some pizzas and then get back to work. Maybe I will see you this weekend in the game!

TheHappyLion
Posts: 1211
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 15:00
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by TheHappyLion »

I just came up with a simple solution to stop botting once and for all. I don't think this method has ever been used before, and I can't believe how simple it is. I will be showing this method to one of the devs later today. I am so excited. I hope they implement it immediately, because it's an easy fix and can be integrated into the game with very little effort. Almost no effort, actually. Of course, I can't share the solution here for obvious reasons, but once the fix is in place, you will know who is responsible. You heard it here first, folks. Bots will actually be a thing of the past. Can you imagine? I am so excited.

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by beckylunatic »

Nuke the site from orbit?
"no logs, only fix"

puddles
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 07:37
Favorite Class: Great Weapon Fighter
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by puddles »

TheHappyLion wrote:I just came up with a simple solution to stop botting once and for all. I don't think this method has ever been used before, and I can't believe how simple it is. I will be showing this method to one of the devs later today. I am so excited. I hope they implement it immediately, because it's an easy fix and can be integrated into the game with very little effort. Almost no effort, actually. Of course, I can't share the solution here for obvious reasons, but once the fix is in place, you will know who is responsible. You heard it here first, folks. Bots will actually be a thing of the past. Can you imagine? I am so excited.

holy shit. Are you Trump.

I have this idea. Its HUUUUUUGGGGE. it will be awesome and everyone will like it.



:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by beckylunatic »

Shit. They're gonna build a wall.
"no logs, only fix"

two31
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 21:34
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by two31 »

TheHappyLion wrote:I can't share the solution here for obvious reasons
The reasons aren't obvious to me.

TheHappyLion
Posts: 1211
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 15:00
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by TheHappyLion »

I realize some of you are skeptical about my amazing solution. But please don't be jealous. I know most of you here are smart people (except for Bert, maybe), and any one of you could have come up with this simple and awesome solution if you had only looked at the problem in the right way. I am as surprised as you all are that such a solution exists. Once I have had a meaningful exchange with the dev and we have ironed out the details, The Man Who Saved Neverwinter will share the details with you. So please be patient. It will be worth the wait. I guarantee it.

User avatar
Bert
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 03:01
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Hunter Ranger
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by Bert »

Fuck off lion.

User avatar
Bert
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 03:01
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Hunter Ranger
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by Bert »

I see a friend list and a foe list. Isn't there any fool list?

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by beckylunatic »

I feel like someone is trying to sell me a ShamWow.
"no logs, only fix"

User avatar
dupeks
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 17:07
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by dupeks »

TheHappyLion wrote:I realize some of you are skeptical about my amazing solution. But please don't be jealous. I know most of you here are smart people (except for Bert, maybe), and any one of you could have come up with this simple and awesome solution if you had only looked at the problem in the right way. I am as surprised as you all are that such a solution exists. Once I have had a meaningful exchange with the dev and we have ironed out the details, The Man Who Saved Neverwinter will share the details with you. So please be patient. It will be worth the wait. I guarantee it.
How un-American. If you have a great idea and you're giving it away then you're a dirty socialist. You should monetize your idea in a true capitalistic fashion, otherwise you're a HUGE loser and you're letting the other side WIN. Why do you hate freedom?

clonkyo1
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:28
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Great Weapon Fighter
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: Bots on Neverwinter

Post by clonkyo1 »

dupeks wrote:1 - I don't know for certain because I don't work on the team, but in general whenever they make ANY updates to Neverwinter server or client code, they are "updating some old code lines".
1 - I disagree: doing a buff or a nerf on some skills, put some collision walls to not allow player go into the outworld and so on has, IMO, nothing to do with "updating the source code" as i don't think that "fix the code" (which is how i read these posts of yours) is the same that "updating the code"... ^^U

TheHappyLion wrote:I just came up with a simple solution to stop botting once and for all. I don't think this method has ever been used before, and I can't believe how simple it is. I will be showing this method to one of the devs later today. I am so excited. I hope they implement it immediately, because it's an easy fix and can be integrated into the game with very little effort. Almost no effort, actually. Of course, I can't share the solution here for obvious reasons, but once the fix is in place, you will know who is responsible. You heard it here first, folks. Bots will actually be a thing of the past. Can you imagine? I am so excited.
Turning off the servers won't work as it didn't work last time they did... But, at least, we had a funny time back there.