AD nerf and dungeon key rework

What does not belong in any other section does probably belong here.
PutzBoy78
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 16:41
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by PutzBoy78 »

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neve ... eon-chests

I'm assuming my comments will be taken down quick, but this change is horseshit

rp (i have a balance of RP north of 7M) are worthless in this game. So your trading items of value to items of no value. This is a blatant nerf.

This is a blatant nerf to VIP and another poke in the eye to loyal long term players to encourage more transient traffic to play the game. You wanna know why the AD economy is off in this game:

1) Failure to resolve obvious unintended AD leaks in the game that has made some people monstrously rich. Instead of rectifying these issues directly, you continue to use passive aggressive nerfs to the AD economy directed to the general public and not those guilty of bad behaviors.

2) There is not enough incentive in this game to convert zen to AD. This has resulted in an unbalanced economy. Add an incentive to owning AD and you will find more balance. Your profit is not dictated by the ZEN store. You can make a profit by pushing demand for players to convert zen to AD as well. This can be seen in creating incentive for people to have AD to acquire RP (which the value of RP has crashed in game so its not currently functioning) or purchase master craft produced assets (which are currently not BIS so no one is exchanging zen for AD to acquire them).

3) Because of #2, ZEN is the premium currency in the game. The price ceiling on ZEN creates more demand. Any ECON101 student knows this. If you want to balance your game economy, hire someone who understands economies, have your developers work with them to create error traps that will send alerts should some unintended action impact the economy.

<a href="http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com ... ing.php</a>

Every time you rework the AD balancing in this game, you are admitting a failure to correctly resolve the issue the last time. AD balancing should only require small tweaks, complete reworks is a sign of your FAILURE. Stop putting us through a continuous cycle of bandaids, take action as identified above and resolve the problem for good or just give up and create content that will work around the existing failed systems. Better yet just send me a check and buy out my account, that will help balance your economy cryptic.

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by j0Shi »

Completely agree. It's hilarious to see people trying to defend the system. Of course everything depends on how many ADs they "hardcode" into dungeon runs and HE,s but I doubt they will be close to matching the Salvage value you got from bosses and chests on average (Which was like 20k from TONG for example?).
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

CdnBison
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 19:34
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by CdnBison »

I'm fine with the rerolls instead of keys. I've had some ToNG runs where I'd like a chance to reroll my emerald into something a bit more.... And I am still a big Oh-fer when it comes to getting an Orcus artifact...

The salvage issue... right now, the reward is trending low, and I hope they address that. eToS has gone from a low end of 4k (purple ring) to ~2k + 300 RP (purple ring RP value). Total = 2,300-ish (all AD values are before 50% invoking bonus or VIP boosts). That's a 50% hit, right off the top. Figure in the invoking bonus, and it's only a third of what it once was.

Now, if there are measures to counter most of that loss, I'm fine. As it is, though, there don't seem to be many in place. I'm a big fan of the 'old campaign currency for rAD', though. That one is a much needed addition.

As for the economics, NW exists in a vacuum, where currency is created from nothing, so regular economic models aren't the best. Supply / demand still applies, though, and there just isn't a demand for AD - it's too easy to create, and no real demand for it (beyond using on the AH); that is, there are no 'AD-sinks'. This creates the one-way street from AD to Zen. If there were AD-only items (ideally consumable) that players required (wards have often been suggested), it might alleviate that somewhat. Want to upgrade that enchant? Get AD. No AD? Convert Zen to AD. Bonus of removing AD from the system when the purchase is made.

User avatar
Shadowblade
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 18:59
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Shadowblade »

CdnBison wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 16:43
...there just isn't a demand for AD - it's too easy to create, and no real demand for it (beyond using on the AH); that is, there are no 'AD-sinks'.
Absolute nonsense! I spend more than 90% of my AD on AD Sinks, usually Marks from the Wondrous Bazaar during the 15% discount event (+25% VIP discount). They are rarely cheaper on the AH.

But then I do upgrade a lot of enchants and artifact gear. I could, possibly, make some small profit by selling Marks on the AH, but i can't be bothered and prefer to equip my Alts.

The last thing I spent on the AH was a few months ago, I think about 70k for a stack of THREE moderate Eclipse enchants. I might buy 6 Ultimate Stones to upgrade a wep and armour enchant to Unparalleled.

I'm not sure what other people do, but I know that my own play style and currency management does not mirror yours.

Preservation Wards could become a Wondrous Bazaar AD Sink only if they were account-bound. Otherwise people would buy a metric fucktonne during Jubilee and sell them on the AH.

;)
:shock:
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a HAMSTER! man in possession of a good HAMSTER!, must be in want of a QUACK!"
Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen (1775–1817)

Good to see forum censorship never makes things look worse then they actually were to start with.

:roll:

Elmster
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 19:09
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Elmster »

I'm gonna go out and say that my immediate feeling after the ad cap was reduced to 100k was that RAD generation needs an immediate nerf. As it stands, you make the RAD cap way, way too fast for salvage drops to have any meaning. An hour of T9 farm generally caps you. With 8 toons I was feeling making the daily salvage cap required a bit of effort. Remember, the salvage cap decrease was aimed at creating deflation, and you can't create deflation without actually limiting supply of a currency. If it takes an hour to cap salvage, RAD becomes a meaningless currency, and you might as well just auto-generate 100k actual AD/account.

The simple value to tune is, how long do we assume it should take to cap RAD. As for a nerf, dunno. AD is a tradeable currency, hence the real value of AD is tied to its supply, and if RAD generation is increased, AD is generated as a 'login-benefit', and if RAD is nerfed, AD is generated through grinding out content. I personally am not able to log-in most days, but after the cap decrease I've built a backlog of RAD of about 4 weeks, and now feel obligated to.

User avatar
Shadowblade
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 18:59
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Shadowblade »

Elmster wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 19:26
I'm gonna go out and say that my immediate feeling after the ad cap was reduced to 100k was that RAD generation needs an immediate nerf. As it stands, you make the RAD cap way, way too fast for salvage drops to have any meaning.
Seriously? Is that all you do, farm AD? Surely hitting the cap fast is a GOOD thing? So you can, like, play for fun?

Take the Vistani gear on older characters who already have at least Primal. The Primal is BtA so can be shared on other characters of the same class, along with various necks and rings.

Full Vistani Set

Code: Select all

Remove Enchants    = -20.5 gold
14 Rank 6 Enchants = 19,600 RP
Salvage the gear   = 37,125 rAD
The rAD includes the +50% Invoking bonus and I ignored the rank 8s on the first character. It can take longer to remove the enchants and salvage the gear than to go get the gear! But say about 20 minutes all told.

But for those who have 50 characters who don't mind talking to Neverember and a few other NPCs, multiply by 50:

Code: Select all

Remove Enchants    = -1025 gold
14 Rank 6 Enchants = 980,000 RP
Salvage the gear   = 1,856,250 rAD
This also includes the rAD for the Shirt and Pants, which usually cannot be salvaged, but for the Vistani gear it can. So that's more than 18 days of refining, approaching 3 weeks salvage. You could easily do 3 characters per hour, so say 12 characters per day. So that's all 50 in 4 or 5 days, IE less than a week. The only question is, do you want to exchange 1025 gold for 980k RP? Or just salvage the gear with the R6 still slotted? Although, you could sell the R6s for AD.

I wonder how many of the Legion of The Banned had multiple accounts with 50 characters and actually salvaged the Vistani gear on all of them? Could Cryptic turn around and say that this was a wheeze to help NEW players, not give older players nearly 2 million AD and 1 million RP as a "Thank You" for their five years of grinding and regular cash payments? Therefore, salvaging the Vistani on 50 characters is an "exploit"?

I think we should be told! (Ed)

Personally, as I always say, most of my AD goes on AD sinks anyway. During the Wondrous Bazaar discount event, I spent over 3 million AD on GMoPs, SMoPs and UMoPs.

Stupidly, I bought my 6 UES from the AH for 1.1 million BEFORE buying the Marks! DOH! I should have spent it on more Marks and bought the UES in about 11 days time, as 1 of each Random Queue, Novice, RIQ and RAQ, plus Salvage, would easily get me 100k per day for 11 days.

But, of course, I disagree that AD needs to be nerfed. It's already harder than it was and will get worse with Mod 15. And I do not spend all of my time farming AD, because that is working the game, not PLAYING it. I prefer to progress with my boons, maybe get better gear drops, have fun with my friends etc than just to farm AD.

Farming AD is dull, dull, dull, so the faster the better, really.

And, of course, I don't have anywhere near 50 characters, and only one account.

:)
:shock:
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a HAMSTER! man in possession of a good HAMSTER!, must be in want of a QUACK!"
Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen (1775–1817)

Good to see forum censorship never makes things look worse then they actually were to start with.

:roll:

Elmster
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 19:09
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Elmster »

Why would hitting a cap fast be a good thing? And if it is, why was there so many complaints when the cap was lowered? The only AD requirement for progressing is marks. Since the overflow of RAD make running dungeons pointless, most of my time in game is spent redoing dungeon bosses. Every once in a while I'll do fane or omu patrols but mostly given up on +5s. Any campaign that's buyable I don't run. My preferred play routine generates about 500k RAD a day. And consists mostly of running t9/cr/msp/fib on 4 toons

User avatar
Shadowblade
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 18:59
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Shadowblade »

Elmster wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34
Why would hitting a cap fast be a good thing? And if it is, why was there so many complaints when the cap was lowered?
Huh? :P

Are you... slightly mad or something? :roll:

The SPEED of hitting the cap is not the issue and not what people are complaining about. It's the LEVEL of the cap that pisses people off. Because it's been LOWERED. Making it take longer to hit the cap by removing salvage is NOT a good thing, especially for people like me who spend at least 80% or their AD on AD Sinks like the WB and USE the marks, not sell them on at a profit.

EG, with 30 characters with 100k +50% Invoking bonus, we could (in theory) refine up to 30 x 36k AD = 1.08 million. Per Day.

Now it's only 100k, regardless of number of characters. Hitting that cap in a few hours is an issue not because it takes only a few hours, but because it is so LOW. The reason we hit it fast is because it's so LOW. Not because we are earning too many AD too fast.

But, as I say, I don't run characters just to farm AD and I won't buy a campaign buyout unless it's account-wide.

I save up all my post-70 level ups and claim them on 2xRP for double sapphires and opals. Last time, before the nerf, I got 45k AD 17 times. That's 30k AD, +50% Invoking bonus = 45k. 17 times = 765,000 AD.

With 36k per character, I refined that in less than 24 hours, IE, 36k immediately, the rest on the next day.

With 100k limit per account, that would take me 8 days to refine. The problem is not hitting the cap faster, it's hitting a cap that is so much lower than it was.

And even this is being nerfed as we won't be able to save them until 2xRP and won't be getting gems and won't have a chance at 30k AD any more. We will get Direct RP instead of unbound gems, so not transferable or sellable, and we will get small amounts of rAD.

:x
:shock:
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a HAMSTER! man in possession of a good HAMSTER!, must be in want of a QUACK!"
Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen (1775–1817)

Good to see forum censorship never makes things look worse then they actually were to start with.

:roll:

Elmster
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 19:09
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Elmster »

Look, I don't invoke, I don't do questline's unless I have to. I don't shuffle menus or characters unless it's particularly profitable. I do like running team content. I don't particularly care if I make 10 or 100 imaginary units of virtual currency, what I do care about is how many imaginary units of virtual currency I make IN RELATION To other activities. And as it stands, 4 hours of team play nets you 4 days worth of unrefined virtual currency. A month of team play nets 4-5 months. Couple of months nets enough to last until 2020, making RAD or salvage or whatever a useless drop.

If they want to curb AD generation, by hard capping refining to a low number while keeping RAD generation high, there seizes to be a point in running content, other than for fun. But if you want to run content for the sake of the content without progression, MMOs are probably not a game for you, since progression is central to the genre. I welcome a nerf. That's all.

User avatar
Shadowblade
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 18:59
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Shadowblade »

So, you welcome a nerf, because we cannot refine more than 100k per day?

And before the current nerf you could refine only 288k per day on 8 characters because you don't bother invoking?

But other people could refine 500k to 1 million per day?

So you're a dog in the manger, pissing on the straw so that the horses can't eat it either?

Well, you must be some kind of selfish toxic. I can see no other explanation. Correct me if I am wrong.

Playing for fun is the main point, it seems to me. You get progression by advancing through the campaigns, which you also don't want to bother doing. You say you don't want virtual currencies? So you just want to be BIS as soon as possible and parade around in your virtual gear?

I'm sure psychiatrists have a word for that.

I think MMOs are the wrong genre for YOU. There's a ton of stuff to do in the game that's fun without running CR and CotDG in a toxic Zerg Channel, although that can be fun as well.

:x
:shock:
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a HAMSTER! man in possession of a good HAMSTER!, must be in want of a QUACK!"
Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen (1775–1817)

Good to see forum censorship never makes things look worse then they actually were to start with.

:roll:

Elmster
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 19:09
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Elmster »

I don't like to piss on anyone's straws. My most preferred solution for the ZAX problem would've been a floating price, and let the market decide just how many $$$ AD is worth. But devs decided to handle it supply side. If you handle it supply side, hard cap without any decreases in production causes an artificial situation where RAD becomes a worthless drop very fast, and it's unhealthy.

I see your posts on the forums, and you react to every single change in class/economy/functionality as if it's a personal attack on your playstyle, which includes an omittance of the last 4? mods and thoroughly repeat playing old single player content. While invoking 50 toons, but not in a grindy reward oriented way but a super fun and engaging way while savoring the loading screens and menus involved.

But other people disagree. I don't really care much for BiS, I like well refined team play, and like to optimize toons for it. Some people like running solo liars, some people quests. But there's a certain idea of rewards in MMOs. I like a reward/effort system compared to a reward/timegate system. I personally dislike logon based rewards, but understand them as a necessity to maintain a casual pbase. At current 90% of the rewards I get are received through logon basis via VIP rewards and RAD refining. I don't really care HOW other people receive their rewards, but I know that actively running content in the game is not in a healthy place because without RAD drops having any value after 100k a day, running a dungeon is not worth the 3k it costs to buy a key from AH.

P.S. On console so no zerg

User avatar
Shadowblade
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 18:59
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Shadowblade »

LOL!

No, I don't have 50 characters and I don't take nerfs as personal attacks. But I am grossly offended, disgusted and annoyed that every nerf that fucks ME up is claimed by Craptrick to be aimed at Bots, Pirates and Exploiters, and I have never used or done any of those things. I am also greatly irritated when a so-called game developer clearly has absolutely no fucking clue what he's talking about.

But I have played on PC since early in Mod 2, Jan/Feb, 2014, so I have seen most of the changes. And there was only Sharandar and Dread Ring in those days, so I've never felt the need to stampede off to new, broken, bug-ridden content as soon as it's released as I've never enjoyed beta testing. Qualifying for the RAQs and REQs was my most recent goal. Also, in the old days, you got Daily Dungeons and AD from Rhix and you needed no keys, but you had to enter during Dungeon Delve Hour to open the chest. Skirmishes, you only got AD during Skirmish Hour, but could run through them as many times as you liked during that hour. It was also only 24k rAD per day per character, and I had only 8 characters then. But getting the boons and trying to conquer Epic Dread Vault was the goal for many.

I am also a little bemused, though, that you seem to be arguing that if you hit your account-wide AD cap in an hour or so, you will stop playing for the day. As if farming AD is the only aim and goal you have. So why do you have 8 characters? When the Wanderer's drops stop, you can play another character for more RP, I suppose.

But Invoking is important because you can get a BtA Coalescent Ward from a Celestial Coffer.

Do you buy all your enchants etc? I make mine, from resources I have farmed. I have a lot of Trans weapon and armour enchants and a LOT of rank 12 "normal" enchants because I take turns "Maining" whichever character is the most fun, and they all have different builds. And every class nerf either makes something useless or makes the formerly useless overpowered. That's why I've been playing my Halfling and Tiefling TR MIs recently. You can make a nice income from selling rank 10 enchants.

I have a few Dragonborns I don't much like, a Whisperknife TR, an SW Temptation and a CW Spellstorm. So I don't play those much, and they were created when DB was first released. I'll probably race re-roll the CW to a Tiefling.

But why would you be buying a dungeon key for 3000 AD? Don't you have VIP? Some of my characters have nearly 3000 VIP keys, so that's a lot of Chest Re-Rolls. I've never bought a dungeon chest key in my life. But the rAD after 100k per day is still there to refine another day, when all you want to do is log in twice to invoke and reset professions, or maybe you have other things to do instead of playing Neverwinter.

In Mod 15, there will BE no dungeon chest keys, of course.

I have not pursued BIS since Mod 6, when all the level 60 Epic gear I had in the vaults waiting for my level 50+ to get to 60 was suddenly worthless trash overnight.

:)
:shock:
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a HAMSTER! man in possession of a good HAMSTER!, must be in want of a QUACK!"
Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen (1775–1817)

Good to see forum censorship never makes things look worse then they actually were to start with.

:roll:

Elmster
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 19:09
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: AD nerf and dungeon key rework

Post by Elmster »

Sorry for delayed answer, been working long days. I buy epic keys because I use more than I get from VIP (duh). 4x3 keys is just 12 a day, not much. And I'm not sure why do you make a big deal about BiS anyways or not BiS. 15k IL is enough to one rotate bosses up to t9 anyways. If you're making a nice profit selling enchants, what's the big deal with nerfing RAD anyways? PS4 just hit ZAX backlogs, and that's not healthy. Personally I would prefer fully floating ZAX, but if hardcaps are used instead the hard cap shouldn't be on the level of a sneeze and a fart. When running content is a cost rather than a gain, we're reaching problem territory. And no, I don't stop playing, I just amass more worthless RAD.