It's not just NWO . . .

What does not belong in any other section does probably belong here.
User avatar
silence1x
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 18:33
Favorite Class: Guardian Fighter
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

It's not just NWO . . .

Post by silence1x »

I've been playing Diablo III recently and visiting their forums. The same complaints (except for PVP cause - no PvP there) that always show up in NWO forums are also in the D3 forums:

Class balance
botting
cheats/exploits
Devs not listening to players
Elite players crying that the devs are catering to the casuals too much

It is funny to see that the general gaming population has the same complaints no matter what the game title happens to be. F2P or purchased - all the reasons.

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by beckylunatic »

Ironzerg has been saying this for years, that there are no MMOs that don't have these complaints.

I've never played any others, so I don't really know, but I've seen the internet and figured there had to be some truth to it.
"no logs, only fix"

two31
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 21:34
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by two31 »

silence1x wrote:Elite players crying that the devs are catering to the casuals too much
I don't see much of this in Neverwinter. I guess it pops up a bit in when players state things like "stop giving us campaigns with daily quests, just give us T3 dungeons". Most of the complaints are from the casual camp: "Please give us separate PvP queues", "please lower the grind to BiS", "please give small guilds some Strongholds relief", etc.

Your broader point is absolutely true. I played vanilla World of Warcraft in 2005 (and quit before Burning Crusade) and it's still the same old arguments.

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by beckylunatic »

I am having a bizarro moment because they've increased the amount of bonus Zen granted for bulk purchases and the reactions are almost universally unhappy. Granted, it's never been a substantial bonus, nor is it a dramatic increase. More of a "hey, have a li'l extra on us, big spender". Not enough to warrant trying to scrape together $100 when your budget should really strictly be $50, but a pleasant extra if you had the flexibility to roll two intended $50 purchases into a single transaction.

I can understand the feeling of recent purchasers who missed it, but I am definitely scratching my head because imo, a larger bonus is a larger bonus.
"no logs, only fix"

ambisinisterr
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 14:27
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Hunter Ranger
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by ambisinisterr »

beckylunatic wrote:Ironzerg has been saying this for years, that there are no MMOs that don't have these complaints.
He's not the only one. The MMO population has this horrible grass is greener complex.

They consistently forget all the "wrongs" of their past MMO's. Every single New MMO gets is going to kill the MMO they currently play. It's always the same. Right now people are talking about how this game will be killed by Fallout 4. Last year it was ESO. Shortly before it was Wildstar. :p

This week's complaint is bans against bots without evidence. Welcome to MMO's and the war against bots. The evidence would be an instruction manual to avoid detection to actual bots so the evidence is never supplied in detail to players. Instead the evidence is reviewed by a human seeing if there are false flags which is always possible. Every single MMO keeps evidence against bots behind closed doors yet it's complained about on every MMO forum as if it is unheard of and unthinkable but this barely scratches the surface.

I could write a book on all the complaints which are universal on all MMO's but I'll save you all from that. I'm sure there probably is a book on it already anyway if I spent any time looking for it anyway.

Urabask
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 02:47
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by Urabask »

This week's complaint is bans against bots without evidence. Welcome to MMO's and the war against bots. The evidence would be an instruction manual to avoid detection to actual bots so the evidence is never supplied in detail to players. Instead the evidence is reviewed by a human seeing if there are false flags which is always possible. Every single MMO keeps evidence against bots behind closed doors yet it's complained about on every MMO forum as if it is unheard of and unthinkable but this barely scratches the surface.
The most dumbfounding part of this cycle is that all the people complaining about how they were unjustly banned usually were banned for good reason but have the audacity to say they weren't.
I don't see much of this in Neverwinter. I guess it pops up a bit in when players state things like "stop giving us campaigns with daily quests, just give us T3 dungeons". Most of the complaints are from the casual camp: "Please give us separate PvP queues", "please lower the grind to BiS", "please give small guilds some Strongholds relief", etc.
Right after the armor penetration bug was fixed there was a wave of people crying about how T2s are too easy. Or a lot of "**** YOU FOR MAKING GMoPs 25k I HAVE OVER 9000 AND I WAS ON A THREE WEEK VACATION IN THE BAHAMAS SO I COULDN'T SELL THEM IN TIME".

Sharpedge
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 19:06
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by Sharpedge »

Urabask wrote:
This week's complaint is bans against bots without evidence. Welcome to MMO's and the war against bots. The evidence would be an instruction manual to avoid detection to actual bots so the evidence is never supplied in detail to players. Instead the evidence is reviewed by a human seeing if there are false flags which is always possible. Every single MMO keeps evidence against bots behind closed doors yet it's complained about on every MMO forum as if it is unheard of and unthinkable but this barely scratches the surface.
The most dumbfounding part of this cycle is that all the people complaining about how they were unjustly banned usually were banned for good reason but have the audacity to say they weren't.
I don't see much of this in Neverwinter. I guess it pops up a bit in when players state things like "stop giving us campaigns with daily quests, just give us T3 dungeons". Most of the complaints are from the casual camp: "Please give us separate PvP queues", "please lower the grind to BiS", "please give small guilds some Strongholds relief", etc.
Right after the armor penetration bug was fixed there was a wave of people crying about how T2s are too easy. Or a lot of "**** YOU FOR MAKING GMoPs 25k I HAVE OVER 9000 AND I WAS ON A THREE WEEK VACATION IN THE BAHAMAS SO I COULDN'T SELL THEM IN TIME".
T2's are too easy now, there is almost no thinking involved in finishing them with a good gf or pally.

Urabask
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 02:47
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by Urabask »

Sharpedge wrote:
Urabask wrote:
This week's complaint is bans against bots without evidence. Welcome to MMO's and the war against bots. The evidence would be an instruction manual to avoid detection to actual bots so the evidence is never supplied in detail to players. Instead the evidence is reviewed by a human seeing if there are false flags which is always possible. Every single MMO keeps evidence against bots behind closed doors yet it's complained about on every MMO forum as if it is unheard of and unthinkable but this barely scratches the surface.
The most dumbfounding part of this cycle is that all the people complaining about how they were unjustly banned usually were banned for good reason but have the audacity to say they weren't.
I don't see much of this in Neverwinter. I guess it pops up a bit in when players state things like "stop giving us campaigns with daily quests, just give us T3 dungeons". Most of the complaints are from the casual camp: "Please give us separate PvP queues", "please lower the grind to BiS", "please give small guilds some Strongholds relief", etc.
Right after the armor penetration bug was fixed there was a wave of people crying about how T2s are too easy. Or a lot of "**** YOU FOR MAKING GMoPs 25k I HAVE OVER 9000 AND I WAS ON A THREE WEEK VACATION IN THE BAHAMAS SO I COULDN'T SELL THEM IN TIME".
T2's are too easy now, there is almost no thinking involved in finishing them with a good gf or pally.
Whoopdee****ingdoo.

I was only bringing it up because that is one of the examples people use for devs catering to casuals.

Jumping in and tooting your horn isn't really relevant to the conversation.

Guinness
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 00:44
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by Guinness »

This isn't terribly difficult to understand

1) The problems with games will always fall into similar Categories
2) The Severity of the problems is independent of their Categories

Only a total fucking retard would get confused and think because games have the same categories of problems that the severity of the problems is similar across games. Or you know someone really disingenuous tying to confuse people.

FRISH
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 05:54
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by FRISH »

ambisinisterr wrote:
beckylunatic wrote:Ironzerg has been saying this for years, that there are no MMOs that don't have these complaints.
He's not the only one. The MMO population has this horrible grass is greener complex.

They consistently forget all the "wrongs" of their past MMO's. Every single New MMO gets is going to kill the MMO they currently play. It's always the same. Right now people are talking about how this game will be killed by Fallout 4. Last year it was ESO. Shortly before it was Wildstar. :p

This week's complaint is bans against bots without evidence. Welcome to MMO's and the war against bots. The evidence would be an instruction manual to avoid detection to actual bots so the evidence is never supplied in detail to players. Instead the evidence is reviewed by a human seeing if there are false flags which is always possible. Every single MMO keeps evidence against bots behind closed doors yet it's complained about on every MMO forum as if it is unheard of and unthinkable but this barely scratches the surface.

I could write a book on all the complaints which are universal on all MMO's but I'll save you all from that. I'm sure there probably is a book on it already anyway if I spent any time looking for it anyway.
While it has truth in it, the thing is that you can use that argument for any MMO no matter how poorly made it is. Lets be real here, they advertised better inventory management with the then new refinement system while completely going overboard with things that flood your inventory while at the same time force you to refine your items 5 stones at a time for so long it makes you wonder how people put up with such a poorly bot friendly interface for so long.

Tbh I have no idea why anyone would still be playing it, they don't give a shit and the game is hugely unfriendly. The thing with other MMOs is that they still tend to have a decent audience positive in some way about the game. Several polls in Neverwinter showed an insane amount of dissatisfaction. It's much more than, 'haters gonna hate'. Post release the only thing the game has achieved is being a cash grab. It could have done better, but they were short sighted.

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by j0Shi »

The communities perceptions might overlap, but I have a hard time comparing Blizzard and PWE games. Blizzard has a strict quality over quantity approach and released a F2P game in Hearthstone with one of the more of not the most beneficial monetizing strategies.

PWE is quite the opposite. Pumping out substandard games that cater to whales is a dying model.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

Sharpedge
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 19:06
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by Sharpedge »

j0Shi wrote:The communities perceptions might overlap, but I have a hard time comparing Blizzard and PWE games. Blizzard has a strict quality over quantity approach and released a F2P game in Hearthstone with one of the more of not the most beneficial monetizing strategies.

PWE is quite the opposite. Pumping out substandard games that cater to whales is a dying model.
I tried to play hearthstone competitively and f2p for quite a while when it came out, considering I actually enjoy card games. I played from closed beta (I still <3 mana addict miracle rogue) till GvG and I earned legend in almost all the ranked seasons and I can quite honestly say that whilst on the surface, hearthstone is more f2p, once you delve into it, its no better then NWO. In order to stay at the top of the game there, you needed to have all the cards and in order to have all the cards for free, you had to play copious amounts of arena. Also, to realistically have any hope of getting all the cards between expansions, you needed to maintain about a 3:1 win/loss ratio in arena, I.E. win 9 games for every 3 you lose (or get eliminated from the arena). I was able to do this whilst I actively played, but here is the thing, I had an advantage, I got in during beta. When I started, there were no established strategies or best ways to play the game, heck, there weren't even deck analysis tools like the ones people use now or the sophisticated bots that exist in the game. This made the playing field a lot more level and allowed me to learn at the same time as others did. For a new player to enter arena now, they will get pugstomped, because they got no experience with all the cards they given and they got no experience with efficient strategies and ways to win.

Its a catch 22 situation now, in order to learn, you got to play with the cards, in order to play with the cards, you either got to buy them or play a lot of arena, arena is gated by 150 gold, in order to get a true taste of arena, you need to win a lot of arena, but in order to win a lot of arena, you got to have experience with the cards. At the end of the day, you got to play really unhealthy amounts of hearthstone in order to acquire all the cards you need, in order to stay near the top there completely f2p. Those players who play it completely f2p atm, they are generally unemployed, retired, or stream hearthstone to make their living. You know, Kripparian, Trump, etc. You see, in order to stay near the top of ranked, you would have to acquire all the cards for free (i.e, play arena) and you would have to also play ranked since arena does not boost your ranking.

There are free to play games that are truly free to play, League of Legends, DOTA and Path of Exile for example, I do not consider hearthstone one of them since you would have to give your heart and soul (exactly the same as you got to do in NWO) to the game in order to play it free.

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by j0Shi »

Well Free-To-Play does not mean you are granted a top spot with absolutely no commitment. It's more about what you get per buck spent.

Of course more paid progress pushes games towards pay-to-win, but I think players should absolutely feel enhanced if they spend 5, 20, 50 bucks per month. That's not the case in Neverwinter, or not as much as I'd think be good.

The VIP program was a step into the right direction though and I also like the rework of the Trade Bar store a lot in terms of microtransactions.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

ambisinisterr
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 14:27
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Hunter Ranger
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by ambisinisterr »

FRISH wrote:Lets be real here, they advertised better inventory management with the then new refinement system while completely going overboard with things that flood your inventory while at the same time force you to refine your items 5 stones at a time for so long it makes you wonder how people put up with such a poorly bot friendly interface for so long.
You assume I don't hate the inventory system. I ranted just yesterday about the inventory system and all the crap they fill my inventory with.

I consistently tell them the number one thing that makes me not want to play is the inventory management that I have to do. I mean I can't do content alone without spending time after every encounter refining items. Even after doing group content I end up having to spend all the time I would have spent trying to empty out my overflow bag since they stop certain features from working if you have items in it.

I despise it.

And what bugs me the most is that there's some easy fixes. What ticked me off yesterday was that I have like 10 different scroll things to refine the Illusionists Mask but I can not upgrade it because I did not get it up to rare quality. Not a big deal. I don't mind waiting to next year. What I do mind is I have tens of thousands of RP saved up in scrolls that I can't use taking up five to ten inventory slots. Ugh.

You see other games learned that's not cool and started either not having such systems take up inventory space...
Or they learned to give players one item which has a growing numerical value so it doesn't take up so freaking many.

But they do every single event in a manner which fills up the inventory. I hate it. With a passion.
Now you are spinning it as intentional...I don't think it is. I think they just don't realize how annoying it is especially for players like me who do not discard things under any circumstances. If it is put in my inventory I do not throw it away and if it is a bonus effect like a potion I am frugal and only use it when I need it....

Which you can be like some people and say it is my problem I am like that...or you can step back from such a inconsiderate point of view and realize that this is the only game I have ever complained about inventory maintenance.
j0Shi wrote:Of course more paid progress pushes games towards pay-to-win, but I think players should absolutely feel enhanced if they spend 5, 20, 50 bucks per month. That's not the case in Neverwinter, or not as much as I'd think be good.
A statement I have agreed with and pushed on for a long time.

I completely disregard people who want games to be free. That's not what free to play is and it's not how the world works in general.

But free to play games should be like impulse games. I should spend 5-20 dollars every month without even realizing it or feeling like it was required. I think the biggest problem is that so many companies which are used to the whale model have this completely false belief that players won't buy anything that don't grant power...
And to those who believe such, and I promise there have been many such shortsighted players on the official forums shouting such nonsense in the last few years, I have just three words.
League of Legends.

kamaliicious
Posts: 341
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 21:28
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by kamaliicious »

ambisinisterr wrote: I consistently tell them the number one thing that makes me not want to play is the inventory management that I have to do.
.....
But they do every single event in a manner which fills up the inventory. I hate it. With a passion.
Now you are spinning it as intentional...I don't think it is. I think they just don't realize how annoying it is
So you're saying they don't listen to their players or moderators? I mean it's either they don't listen or it's intentional: if they're listening and still doing it then it's not "they don't realize", and if they're not listening well then they're not listening. The only other real option would be to say it's happening because they are incompetent and keep making the same mistake over and over. Of the three options (not listening/incompetence/intentional), I'd go with intentional, it sells more bags.

I mean we could go with "they do it because they're incompetent" as the reason. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are competent.

So they either know people hate it or they don't know people hate it. Since you say you are consistently telling them, they can't not know unless they are not listening. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are listening.

Since I've given them the benefit of the doubt twice, I've put them in the best available light: eg they are both competent and listening. In this case, since they are not fixing it despite being competent and listening to complaints, it's intentional.

ambisinisterr
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 14:27
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Hunter Ranger
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by ambisinisterr »

More that they don't understand how much it bothers people.

Additionally, we're the first to say they don't listen to us. They listen to the players and expect us to cite other player feedback when we say changes need to occur. My/our feedback is just noise unless we have a thread full of player feedback and there really haven't been threads complaining about inventory space for a really long time...

Additionally I am also the moderator who hates it the most. One other mod really dislikes it, one doesn't have a strong opinion either way and the last one doesn't believe there is a problem so even amongst us it's not conclusive.

Nice of you to try to spin things to support your view though. :p

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by beckylunatic »

ambisinisterr wrote:there really haven't been threads complaining about inventory space for a really long time...
That's because all the threads are phrased as "too many kinds of refining items oh dear gods please stop making more refinement items", and not more generically about "bag space".
"no logs, only fix"

kamaliicious
Posts: 341
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 21:28
Favorite Class: Control Wizard
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by kamaliicious »

ambisinisterr wrote:Nice of you to try to spin things to support your view though. :p
You're the one saying they don't listen to players (bag space complaints). I put Cryptic in the best light, and it's "spinning things to support my view" ? Errr, ok. I said they do it because they want to sell bags and make money. Oh noes! They want to make teh monies!

They are a company, logic says they do stuff to make money.

User avatar
MinMax Fortytwo
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 23:35
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by MinMax Fortytwo »

one of my problems about their ways to make money is: They make money on the cheapest way.

A lot of games out there can make money with fashion items. Neverwinter still lacks moderate fashion items in the cash shop. Since module 2 there wasn't a major fashion item upgrade. Of course there was free fashion items but nothing really special to buy and to look different and i thnk the problem is that 3D-Artists which creates the fashion would be too expensive and a too hard cut in their profits (which simply means: +Money but less because you need to pay also the artists)

BUT they don't even bother to sell transmute kits. I mean we have a huge bunch of old armor which can't be aquired ingame because the dungeons doesn't exist anymore. They could make a huge amount of money if they would sell one transmute kit for like 100 Zen in the market and could do it every time some armorskins aren't available anymore because of some rework. That would be service and a decent business model. But this never happened.

Instead we have limited bag space which we can only expand by spending money or a huge amount of free currency and other ways to spend money in the game.

ambisinisterr
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 14:27
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Hunter Ranger
Preferred Gametype: BOTH

Re: It's not just NWO . . .

Post by ambisinisterr »

kamaliicious wrote:You're the one saying they don't listen to players (bag space complaints).
They do not listen to the mods. They listen to the players. Our views are weighed no more or less than the views of the average player so as I said when the mods say we feel something to change nothing will happen unless we cite evidence that other players agree.
Please stop stating I said things I did not. :P